Bison 1

Bison One’s Interview with James Rowan

West Yellowstone, Montana

May 28, 2017, 12:00 p.m.

“Uhs,” “ums,” and “Mm-hms” have been removed from this transcript. However, crutch words and false starts are included.

James Rowan: My name’s Jimmy.

Dana Thomas: Jimmy? Okay.

JR: Yea, my name.

DT: We’ll just have you state your full name, and then how to spell it so we can put it in there.

JR: James Rowan, R-O-W-A-N

Allison Marrin: I’m Allison, if I may introduce myself, and that’s Dana and Derek.

JR: Dana and Derek?

DT: Yes sir.

JR: D, D, Allison, okay.

DT: Good way to remember. So we, the day is the 28th of May, and, what’s the time, Derek?

Derek Holmberg: The time is 12:00pm on the dot.

AM: Now we have to say the-

DT: Oh, and the location of the interview is Our Lady of-

JR: the Pines.

DT:  the Pines, Yes. Catholic church.

JR: in West Yellowstone, Montana.

DT: Yes, okay.

JR: Do you hear my accent? That’s my Philly accent; *All laugh* I never got rid of it.

DT: So this interview is being recorded for use by Longwood University, any information given may be made public. Okay? So, how long have you lived here?

JR: Fifteen years.

AM: What brought you out here?

JR: Well, I, have you guys ever heard of the South Dakota Motorcycle Rally?

DT, AM: No.

JR: You should look that up. *All laugh* It’s, it’s the biggest motorcycle rally in the world. The get, you know, about on average, half-a-million people come from all over the world.

AM: Jeez.

JR: It’s like a nine, ten-day thing, like two, two weekends, with a week in between so it’s like nine, ten days. And, I rode my motorcycle up from, up down in Florida at the time. My mother had a winter, we were snowbirds; we would go down on the weekends a lot, during holidays, and to Palm Beach Florida. Like down the street from where President Trump. So I rode my motorcycle from south Florida to South Dakota, which is south-west South Dakota.

DT: Wow.

JR: And since I was there a week, I did day trips into Montana and Wyoming. Because of, you know the map, it’s, South Dakota borders, you got, like, Montana here and South Dakot- and Wyoming. So I did day trips into Montana and Wyoming, and fell in love and said “one day, I’m getting’ a place out here.” And, I did. *All laugh* Yea, I came out a few, few summers, you know to scope out places. You know, looked at stuff on the internet, made lists of places that looked good. But you got to see them in person. Got to like the vibes.

DT, AM: Yeah.

JR: And we found a place I liked. Bought it, and then I lived for, let me see, for four or five years I kept, kept my home in south Florida. But then I sold that, and just, I’ve been, ten years just based out of Montana. But I travel a lot, so that helps because, you know, I’m a city guy. I mean, I was born and raised in Philly.

AM: Yeah.

JR: And then I worked. My family is in the clothing business; I lived and worked in Manhattan ten years. So this was kind of the opposite of New York City.

AM: Quite.

DT: Yea, a little bit. So, do you like it here?

JR: Yea. No, I love it, I, you know, well, you can’t beat the scenery. How do you like the scenery around here?

DT, AM: It’s beautiful.

AM: Yeah.

DT: Absolutely.

JR: Is this your first time out down here?

DH: Yes.

JR: Yea it’s like God’s country, man.

DH: It really is.

JR: And I like, thankfully we just, I think last year we dropped below one million for the whole state, so that’s, I like that.

DH:  Oh really? So the state’s population has been shrinking?

JR: Well, it was like it went over a million, you know, like a million one, million two, but now it’s back down to just under a million.

JR: I like the state with one area code-

JR: for landlines and cellphones, only one area code, 406.

AM: Really?

DT: Awesome.

DH: Interesting.

JR: And, It’s funny. I like, I liked to get my dose of the cities. Like, I go back, after working in the clothing business, I don’t know how much-  Do you know anything about boxing, anybody?

AM: No.

JR: Okay, well Philadelphia, my hometown, is probably known, not just nationwide but worldwide, as like known for its toughest fighters. Like if you’re watching a fight on TV and a guy’s real tough, the caller guy will say he fights like a Philly fighter. *DT laughs* That’s where Smokin’ Joe Frasier is from. I’m sure you’ve heard of him.

AM: I might have, I don’t know. I think I’ve seen a movie about boxing-

JR: He had three great, three great fights with Muhammad Ali.

AM: Oh, okay.

JR: First one he beat Ali, broke his jaw. Knocked him down, Madison Square Garden, 1971. He was a good friend of mine. And, God, you know, is it more about me, or like, you know, because, you tell me what you want me to focus on.

AM: No, whatever you want to talk about.

DT: It’s all about-

DT, AM: It’s your show.

JR: Okay. Well, thanks to my Mom, I’m here. She’s my mother’s my hero. May she rest in peace, she just died this past November.

AM: I’m sorry.

DT: Sorry for your loss.

JR: Thank you. She was born in Poland.

AM: Wow.

JR: 1928. Lived there 1939, if you know, do you know your history? Do, do you remember that, in ’39 to ’41, Hitler made a non-aggression pact with Stalin to, if you don’t interfere when I invade Poland, I’ll give you eastern Poland. So the Vistula river is the dividing point. My mother lived in eastern Poland. As a matter of fact, where she’s from is Lithuania now.

AM: Okay.

JR: You know how they changed the borders all these different bunch of times. So because their parents were teachers, and they’re Catholics, and the communists don’t like educated people. Siberia took her father somewhere else. His name, he’s Austrian, my mother’s father is Austrian. My maiden, my mother’s maiden name is, is a little trivia, is Jong, J-O-N-G. I’m related to Carl Jong, you know, the famous psychiatrist?

AM: Oh really?

DT: Really?

JR: Yea. And my mother, her sister, my grandmother, you know, Russian soldiers come to their house and, so they got a half hour to pack a bag and you’re out of here. So at home, all their belongings, everything. Put it on cattle cars, sent to Siberia. You know you only hear about that one tribe, but it was many people who suffered. And many people died in World War Two, most people have no idea. And I don’t mean it as a, like a put-down or, but- Like, did you ever, do you know how many people actually died in World War Two?

AM: I know it was like, eleven million just Jews, wasn’t it?

JR: No, it was, well, they, they used the number six million, but since the Soviet Union collapsed, once the historians had access to documents that the Russians confiscated, the number’s closer to four million. Which is horrible, you know, I’m against holocaust, I’m against terrorism. Though I support the Palestinians and their mistreatment. Well, most people, it’s a hard number to grasp, but, but say that the low number estimates are fifty-five to seventy million people died in World War Two. So many, they don’t know how many men. But we only hear about that tribe, which is kind of bugaboo where people like my mother, and non-Jews, gentiles, they were exiled to Sib- you don’t hear about them it’s like they don’t count. And she lived with Mongolians. Took her in for three years, in a mud hut. And one of their, Polish exiles, got back to Warsaw and got a hold of my mother’s uncle, told them where they were. I guess it was just a village name, no street address-

AM: Yeah.

JR: and he’s sewed gold Russian coins in the lapels of their winter, winter coats. Sent them to them, and they got there.  Because, they, you know were stuck there, no money, you know no, no means of transportation you know but what are you going to do? So, I remember when they, the coats got there, my grandmother, she was feeling around and opened up the seams and found the coins and says “oh my God, we don’t have to stay here and die!” So they walk like a hundred and fifty miles south to Kaska caught a train to the Caspian Sea. Crossed the Caspian Sea to Persia which is Iran. Lived there a year. Then went to an American Army camp in Lebanon for a year. And the coins is what they used to barter their way through. And this is one of those coins, if you want to check it out; I made a ring out of it, this is one of the smaller ones.

DT: Oh wow.

James: That’s, that’s Czar Nicholas, the last czar of Russia.

DT: Wow.

JR: Circa 1899.

DT: That’s a good thing to do with it. Make it into a ring.

JR: I decided to make it because it’s, hey, I’m, I’d be Mongolian if it wasn’t for the, those coins.

DT, AM: Yea, yea.

JR: Because, how could I get out, I mean-

AM: Yeah, wow.

DT: That’s crazy.

DH: That’s a Russian coin?

JR: Yea! That’s Czar Nicholas II on there, he was, you know, the last czar.

DH: So, was that coin made like, before the, what’s it called, the Bolshevik Revolution?

JR: Yea, this coin’s 1899.

DH: Oh yea.

DT: Wow.

AM: That’s pretty cool.

JR: On, on the back, you can see the date. Yea. yea, he was the one that they deposed and then murdered him and his wife and children. If you remember. And my mother came in this country, settled in Philadelphia. She came at 17; spoke no English. No money. And she was a designer, and she loved clothes. She didn’t have the education for it, but, she worked hard and worked her way up and met a man and they started a label together, and she was successful in the clothing business. Did you ever hear the label “Jones New York”?

AM: Wait, what?

JR: It’s called “Jones New York.”

DT: I don’t think I’ve heard of it.

JR: It’s better sportswear, you know, we sell, we sell better department stores like, you know, like I think Bloomingdales, you know Macy’s, Nordstrom those kinds of stores. And, because she succeeded in Philadelphia… Anyway, back to the boxing. So, for the past 20 something years, I, I’ve managed professional boxers.

DT: Oh, wow.

AM: So you’ve done like, everything. So you’ve done everything.

JR: A little bit of everything.

AM: A little bit of everything.

JR: And then I, my mother founded three charities; she wanted to give back to Philadelphia, so her focus is single women with children. So we have, and you can look it up sometime if you want, there’s Rowan House, that’s traditional housing, I mean, transitional housing for women that come off the streets, mostly teenage moms. You know they can study for their GED, computer, and teach infant massage, teach them how, get through all the red tape to get the benefits they’re entitled to. And then we help them find a job and an apartment for rent, but they stay responsible for paying their rent and their job for two years we help them buy a place.

DT: That’s nice.

JR: So there’s Rowan Homes. And, which is administered by, she, she’s a great lady, Sister Mary Scullion. She has a organization project home, and she, she works with all the homeless. She and my mother, like, hit it off,  so, you know instead of reinventing the wheel and hiring all new staff, you know you need people to you know, maintenance people, and people that, you know pay the bills, and accounting and all that stuff. So instead of hiring new people, Sister Mary, she’s a mercy nun. She’s pretty famous; a few years ago, she was one of Time’s 100 most influential women.

AM and DT: Wow.

DH: Oh really?

JR: Yea, if you want a name, it’s Sister Mary Scullion, S-C-U-L-L-I-O-N.

DH: I-O-N?

JR: L-L-I-O-N.

DH: Okay.

JH: Yea I just saw two weeks ago she gave a commencement speech at Georgetown.

AM: Oh wow.

DT: Awesome.

JR: And it’s like a, it’s a combination of city, lo- city, state, federal, private funds. And like our model is, is very good, like, you know, we have one of the highest ratings. There, there’s this, like have you ever heard D & B down on Bradstreet, it’s, they rate businesses.

AM: Okay.

JR: You know, their credit worthiness-

AM: Yea.

JR: Well, there’s a site called “Charity Navigator.” Like If you want to donate to a site and, and see like how much if, if a person- If you want to be listed with “Charity Navigator” you have to turn over all your books to them. So they go through your accounting records and know how, where the money goes. Okay, ours is 88, 90 percent goes directly to the charity. You take things like, like Susan Komen Foundation, you know, breast cancer, you know- about 85 percent of their money just goes to raising more money for next year; very small percentage goes to actual cancer research or cures. It’s a joke. But nobody look, you know, most people don’t look at that, you know, because they, they do so much advertising-

AM: Right.

JR: and promotion, people just assume it’s a great thing. Or like, you know, “Hillbilly” Clinton and his Haiti thing, all, all the money they raised, last time I looked only 10 percent of the money they raised for Haiti’s earthquake went to Haiti.

DT and AM: Wow.

JR: The rest went in their pockets and whoever else’s-  So, we have a good rein-  and then she has, my mother has a breast, she’s a two-time breast cancer survivor.

DT and AM: Wow.

JR: And started a breast cancer center, University of Pennsylvania Hospital.

AM: That’s awesome.

JR: Which is my alma mater. I went to Catholic Grade School high school but, then I went to Penn.

DT: Really?

JR: Yea.

DT: Been up there.

JR: You got to go to Philly, man, that’s the most historic-

AM: On the bucket list.

JR: Huh?

AM: On the bucket list; it’s after this one.

JR: It’s the most historic city in the country.

AM: Yeah.

JR: You know that, right? I mean, the Declaration of Independence, signed there, written, signed there. Constitution written, signed there. First capital of the United States. It’s where the navy started. John Barry founded the US Navy. I can go on and on, Ben Franklin. *All laugh* Philadelphia we have the, Philadelphia has the first zoo in the United States.

AM: Does it?

DT: Really.

JR: Yup. Ben Franklin, it was his idea for volunteer fire department. Philadelphia the first free library in the country, it was in Philadelphia. And, Philadelphia’s got a lot of firsts.

DT and AM: Yeah.

DT: That’s awesome.

AM: Sounds like it.

DT: So, going off of that, being that they both, Yellowstone and Philly, probably has a lot of tourism. How would you compare-

JR: Ah, yeah.

DT: the two. How have you seen tourism in Yellowstone compared to Philly?

JR: Oh, well here you obviously people come here, they come to see, you know, the, the nature like, you know, as you know, why I like, why I like this area, like, I drive a lot across country. Because I, I have one of those entertainer busses, you know. That’s like an RV that I live on.

DT: Oh, okay.

JR: Me and my dog. I’m single. No kids, never married. And I’m straight, not gay. *All laugh* Just haven’t had the, met the right woman, I guess. So, I would, so where we let, where this area is, if you’ve looked on the map, you know, we’re right at the continental divide. We’re on the east side of the continental divide. And you remember Lewis and Clark, all the rivers, rivers run east of the continental divide, and, and rivers on the west side run west to the Pacific. Like, when they went from St. Louis in their boat all the way up the, you know the, Louis and Clark expedition, they were going against the current the whole way. *All laugh*

DT: Wow.

AM: Jeez.

DT: Wow.

JR: So, what I, what I love about this area, and not only Yellowstone Park, the first national park, is, you know, like driving across country, you know, I appreciate, you know the wide-open space. I mean, you go through Kansas, and Iowa, and you know the-

AM: Yea.

JR: -middle, middle Atlantic state- the middle, mid-west it’s all flat. I mean there’s no- there’s no mountains.

JR: Now, eastern Montana is flat. Now we’re in southwest Montana. So, to me- ya know I appreciate the wide open space- I mean it’s cool to look and see forever. I also like the mountains. But I don’t like the mountains that are like on top of me. So what I found out here- I don’t know how much you’ve driven around but this is like the best of both worlds. It’s-We’ve got the wide open space and the mountains.

AM: Yea it’s awesome

JR: And yeah then yeah obviously the wildlife- Have you been in the park recently?

AM: Oh yeah

DT: We’ve seen a lot of wildlife- How do you feel about the wildlife?

JR: My favorite is probably the baby bisons

AM: They’re so cute

JR: Aren’t they cute?

DT: They are so cute

AM: We saw some this morning [in the car ride] getting here

JR: Aren’t they cute?

AM: So cute

DT: Uh-huh

JR: Watch out though, though the adults you know they don’t mess around

AM: No they don’t

JR: *laughs*

AM: Do you have any coming into town here? Like off the park or do most of the animals stay in the park? From what you’ve seen-

JR: Most of the animals stay in the park. You do have- We have- We do have a problem with you know if you know anything about wolves you know they have packs. And they each have their own territory

AM: Yeah

JR: So we do get- Because of the growth and the population of wolves- Packs get- Have gotten pushed out of the park so you’ve got wolf packs in Idaho and Montana that are out of the park Like where I live- I live 30 miles from here, Reynold’s Pass- So I go- I go into- do you know 20? Where you go outta town here- I don’t know how you got here.

AM: I think that’s how we got here?

DH: We just drove in from the park entrance- We just drove in

JR: Oh! Okay- I see- So okay well if you- There’s a road out of town, 20- You take that I don’t know like what is it? 20 miles roughly and then you take a right oh but when you go over this tary pass you cross from Montana into Idaho. And then when you make a right to where my street is you cross back into Montana again

DT: *laughs*

AM: That’s cool

JR: We’re kinda like right where Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming all meet. Because when you look on the map- I guess you’ve seen the map- The western sliver of the park crosses into Montana though most of it is in northwest Wyoming.

AM: Do you get any wolves out there?

JR: Where I live?

AM: Is that too far?

JR: No, we get them but they stay- Where I live, my house is 7,000 feet above sea level and then I have the Madison mountain range behind me. That’s like 10-11-12,000 that’s where- You know they [the wolves] usually stay back there and then there’s also behind me along those mountains there’s a trail when elk migrate

AM: Oh okay

JR: Like, they use that trail you know to come and to go-

AM: Do they come into town? Have you seen them [the elk] come like close to people?

JR: Elk don’t really come into tow- deer do. Elk don’t- Antelope really don’t- But so that path where the elk travel- You’ll get you know the wolves will be-

AM: Yeah

JR: You know they’ll be looking for the weak ones

Allison: Yeah

JR: Or the babies or somebody injured- Make your way up to- You gotta go- You know when you’re here, you’ve gone to the wolf and grizzly center? You should go there

AM: We haven’t gone there

DT: Yeah we haven’t gone there yet

JR: You know about it?

AM: They told us about it when we came in

JR: Yeah it’s really- You know you got grizzly bears in there that are in the habitat- I mean they got a big moat around it and well an electronic fence for the grizzlies. It’s pretty cool like they- They do shifts like 2 or 3 at a time- come after like a half hour and what they do is you know they’re trained there’s like a silent bell- I’ve never heard it- But there’s a signal they send and the bears that are out will go back into their pen- Back into the thing, they shut the door, and then the staff will come out like bury food all over like under rocks-

AM: Oh okay

JR: And under trees and things- And then they [the staff] will let the next group out [the bears] and you see them come running out- you know they take logs and just flip them over-

DH, AM, DT: *laughs*

JR: Ya know like they’re that pencil-

AM: *laughs*

JR: Or pen- and to me the grizzly can run- It’s amazing when you see how agile they are and for their size you know. They can run 35 miles an hour

AM: Wow

JR: Which is pretty fast

DT: That’s pretty fast for their size

JR: And then the wolves are great- You know they obviously are fenced in but there’s like- There’s one building you go inside and it’s- You know the walls all glass and you know the wolves can be right outside the-

AM: geez

JR: The glass

DT: Wow

JR: They got them right there

AM: While we’re here we have our own research questions that we’re doing and I know it’s a controversial one but it’s like we have to research and argue different standpoints on the wolves being able to-

JR: The population-

AM: And ours is like we’ve been researching a stance behind wolves should be- What is it? They can be hunted on private land with cause-

DT: With reason

JR: But yeah-

AM: So how do you feel about that?

JR: If they’re huh?

DH: You know not on private land, if they’re hunted on public land- They can’t be shot on public land

JR: Yeah no- But if they’re you know like packs being forced out of the park- You know they have- If they have you know killing somebody’s livestock on his land then he can shoot them

AM: Yeah- Then we’re also doing our research on bison as well and it’s- We’re trying to figure out-

JR: And they come out of the park too sometimes-

AM: Yeah

JR: They’ll be walking and we get traffic jams- They’re not intimidated by cars

AM: *laughs* No

JR: They’ll be walking down the middle of the road and they don’t budge

AM: Right. We’re studying what their fate should be once they do leave the park and we’ve researched different standpoints of like- If the culling should really be allowed, translocation, and just letting them roam free- So do you have a specific stance on that?

JR: Well I think you really have a combination- I would think of all three- I mean certain places I think you do have to cull the herd, obviously they should be able to roam free on government land- BLM land

AM: Yeah

JR: And then you’ve got- You probably know about you know Ted Turner’s big ranch out here, right?

AM: No

JR: I think you should look that up- Ted Turner, he runs the largest buffalo herd in North America

AM: Oh really?

JR: Yeah he has- HIs ranch is like a million acres

AM, DT: Wow

JR: So, southern Montana and it goes into Wyoming

AM: Okay

JR: And- So that’s kinda cool you know- That he- You know I guess he fell in love with this part of the country

AM: Right

JR: He has a big place out here and you know he’s got- You know Ted’s Buffalo Burgers. He has some- I don’t know how many restaurants though- They started in Bozeman- first one started in Bozeman.

AM: Oh okay

JR: Oh and also don’t forget, I love the raptors- You know the eagles and the falcons-

AM: Oh yeah

JR: You know the ospreys we have here- By the way the Wolf and Grizzly Center, you know in the warm weather, they have a raptor center too that you can see- You know eagles that have been injured or like something happened to them being exposed to chemicals or something- Whatever you know they take them in and they’re caged but they’ve got plenty of room you know to fly around and you can see you know all the hawks, eagles, the ospreys, barn owls, great horned owls- That’s pretty cool

AM: Yeah

JR: That’s another reason to go there- But I love seeing the raptors, or you seen any nests? You’ll see on top of certain trees- It’s- The way the branches set up you know the eagles or the ospreys they make nests in these trees- Some people put up platforms- They’ll put up a post-

AM: Oh really?

JR: And then like a flat, you know piece of wood on there- On top to help them- You know get a good start on building a nest

DT: That’s nice

AM: That is nice

JR: Yeah

AM: Do you- Where- We’re staying in Gardiner right now, that’s a very small town, very cute though

JR: Near the park-

AM: And they were- we were kinda talking to some people there and they’re talking about how the town has changed and tourism I guess is like affecting it a lot but they don’t really complain about it- They said that it mostly affects in it in a positive way- Do you think tourism hits here hard? Or-

JR: No I think- Well as you probably know if you study Montana- You know I’m not an expert but I know- Well first off I think Montana has, pretty sure, more cows than people

Am, DT: *laughs*

JR: So you do have ranchers, farmers, you know those- There’s a lot you know wheat and barley that they grow out here but you know the tourism business is a big source of revenue for the state- So, in that sense you know tourism is good

AM: Yeah

JR: You want them [tourists] to come and I think what’s interesting is because of the winters- The winters, I don’t think they’re as rough as people think they are- By the way you have to excuse me I got two hours of sleep last night

DT: Oh no

JR: I couldn’t sleep last night

DT: I’m sorry

JR: It’s alright- But you know the tourism is good- The winters aren’t as bad as people think they are here which keeps people away which is good so you’re not overrun by the tourism- Like for instance I can compare it to i don’t know the Jersey Shore because I, being from Philadelphia that’s where we use to go to the beach

AM: Oh okay

JR: ‘We’re going down the shore’ that’s what we use to say in Philly- You don’t say ‘I’m going to the beach’- We’re going down the shore

DT: *laughs*

JR: Not down to the shore

AM: *laughs*

JR: Down the shore- But it’s a mob scene

AM: Yeah

JR: Here, it’s wide open space you know you don’t get the crowds and the-

AM: Yeah

JR: You know you don’t feel like you’re being invaded like you do in-

AM: Yeah

JR: Places back east- And the reason I asked you about Virginia Beach is that- I didn’t finish when I brought up Vic Damone [before the interview]- He has four nephews whose parents are dead- Their father killed- Shot Vic’s sister and then committed suicide

AM: Wow

JR: And they’re real hustlers- Well thanks to Vic, with his help they’ve got the beach concession- You’ve probably heard of South Beach and Miami Beach?

AM, DT: Mhm

JR: Okay well there’s like a main 25 block section there, they’ve got the concession for you know beach chairs, and umbrellas, towels, jet skis, rafts, food, water- They’ve also got Fort Lauderdale Beaches and Virginia Beach, Virginia

AM: Oh okay- That’s pretty cool

JR: So, if you ever go to the beach- Hey- Write down their names, The Bouchet Brothers-

DH: Bouchet Brothers?

JR: Yeah like B-O-U-C-H-E-T- Even though Vic’s Italian, the father was I guess Bouchet- Drop his name, say you met me, and you’ll get some discounts *all laugh* And they also handle hotels too-

AM: Oh okay

DT: Really?

JR: Like they handle the hotel pools or- Or the hotels that are on the beach-

AM: Okay. That’s cool

DT: Awesome. Yeah

AM: That’d be a nice business to get into, be by the beach all the time

JR: Yeah, and it’s cash business

DH: *laughs*

AM, JR: Cash business

JR: A lot of cash-

DH: That’s nice

JR: But now with these smart things where you can slide the cards and your cell phone- People are doing that too

AM, DH: Yeah

JR: We’re going to have cashless society pretty soon-We’re just gonna have chips implanted *all laugh* with the barcodes

DT: Probably

AM: Yeah

JR: Well they’ve been experimenting with that for years in Africa

DT: Really?

JR: Yeah- Uh-huh

AM: I didn’t know that

DT: Yeah didn’t know that either

JR: Yeah just like those- You know like you can get for your dog the-

DT: Microchip

JR: Microchip- They have a similar thing you know that’s not much bigger than you know couple rice kernels-

AM: Yeah

JR: That’ll identify who you are, it’s-

AM: Pretty crazy

JR: Big Brother huh?

AM: Yeah

DT: Yeah

DH: So kind of like going back to the tourism, would you say that the tourism overall is good for West Yellowstone and good for Montana? Or like you were saying is it like too overwhelming and- Is it too much?

JR: No I think- I mean at times, well you can- You’ve been in the park, you get a lot of, you know there’s not a lot of highways-

AM: Yeah

JR: There’s roads- You get traffic jams, you know you get a lot of idiots that are slowing down and don’t know how to drive or are looking at the animals-

AM: Oh yeah

JR: People will pull over but don’t pull over all the way-

AM: Oh yeah- Lots of that

JR: Oh yeah, that’s a pain in the neck- But you know over all like I said, I think- I don’t know where it ranks but you know tourists they figure with the hunting, and the fishing, and people coming out here not just to the park but to see the scenery in Montana- You know tourism’s our- Probably around number three, number four in income for state

AM and DT: Oh wow

JR: So, you know in that sense it’s good

AM: Yeah

JR: Like we, you know we have no state income tax- No sales tax I mean

AM: Oh okay

DH: Really?

JR: No sales tax

AM: You don’t need it?

JR: No

AM: That’s crazy

DT: That’s awesome

JR: Yeah- So you want to buy a car register it in Montana *All laugh*

AM: That’s crazy

DT: That is crazy

AM: Don’t have that back home

JR: Oh yeah I’ve got plenty of friends- Say, I don’t know- But they you know they rent their- They buy cars and register them to my address here *All laugh* And they pay no, no tax-

DT: That’s nice

JR: No sales tax- Get Montana plates

DT: That’s nice

JR: Because they’ll just send them

DT: So do you go to the park a lot? Or since-

JR: Yeah- No I go- I always go like now is the time you know I’ve been meaning to go, I’ve been busy with unfortunately a nightmare probatum my mother’s will, she died in November and got thieves stealing-

AM: Wow

JR: Millions from her- But this is a great time to go because you get to see all the babies and-

AM: Yeah

JR: The weather’s nice- Yeah and I like meeting people- I’m lucky I’ve been able to travel a lot in my lifetime

AM: Yeah

JR: Like I have frequent flier miles, I’m over the million mile club

AM: Wow

JR: To give you an idea because that’s-

AM: That’s a lot

JR: A lot of flying

AM: Do most people around here, do they- Kind of like born and raised and stay here? Or do a lot of people come in and out?

JR: Okay well you’ve got- I’m going to say like- I’m going to say only- *Perry walks into room* Hey Perry, gotta question for you, like you live around the park, what would you say, how many are all year round residents? 40%?

Perry: Oh no- 15%

JR: Only 15?

P: Yeah

DT: Wow

P: That’s what I would estimate

AM: How many of those people have just been here all their lives?

P: Not very many

AM: Not many?

P: No, not very many- Maybe 2 or 3%- 4%.

AM: Wow

JR: I’m out in Madison County- I thought there was- I thought it was about, does that sound too high? 40% live in Madison County all year round?

P: Madison County in Idaho?

JR: No, Montana

Perry: Madison County in Idaho?

JR: No, Montana.

Perry: Your Madison County?

JR: My Madison County.

Perry: I don’t know.

JR: You know because you got Aness and you got McAlester and you got Virginia City.

Perry: Yea I’m not sure there. Yea.  I don’t know I’m from Idaho.

[All laugh]

JR: Yea but its right next door I go past your house on the way home. Maybe its thirty percent look it up you know and you have a lot of people- a lot of people have vacation homes here. We are having a lot of invasion of Californians.

AM: Oh really?

JR: Yea

AM: All the time or just the summer or winter?

JR: No people are starting to move here.

AM: What for?

JR: To save money.

AM: That’s true.

JR: Like remember- I don’t know if you remember but a few years ago like just over night that embarrassment of a governor Jerry Brown. Like over night the legislature- oh we are going to increase state income tax like ten percent. Montana’s is very low the property taxes are low. Like where I live I have two buildings. I have too much space and too much stuff. My house is six thousand square feet. It’s me and my dog. And then I have-

AM: -Get another dog.

JR: Huh?

AM: I said get more dogs.

[JR laughs]

JR:  Well you got to be careful, my breed they call them a guard dog. Maybe a female. He is a male, max. He needs a female he can get along with. [all laugh] Like if I got a female puppy. Yea max is going to be, he is my second Akita if you know Akita breed. [DM, AM, and DT shake head no]

JR: You don’t know Akitas?

AM: I might know what they look like I don’t know like the name.

JR [to Derek]: Can you look up Akitas? They’re the baddest- to me they’re my favorite dog man. They’re like regal they’re-

DT: Really?

JR: They are centuries old breed they are originally from Mongolia.

AM: Oh ok.

JR: Japanese kept them alive.

DH: How is that spelled?

JR: A.k.i.t.a.

DH: [Looking at picture of Akita he looked up] Aw haha.

JR: Yea show them.

AM: Oh yea.

DT: I’ve seen them.

DH: So that’s your dog?

JR: Yea.

DT: They’re pretty.

JR: They are big thick.

AM: yea.

JR: I know about three four centuries ago they bred them with mastiffs. Like Akitas aren’t tall they’re like twenty six twenty seven inches at the shoulders but they’re big boned.

AM: ok.

JR: Like max weighs one hundred and thirty pounds.

AM: Wow that’s a big dog.

JR: [To woman who walked up and took his pen] I didn’t say you could have that pen.

Woman: I didn’t ask.

[All laughs]

DT: Has your dog come into- had any problems with the wildlife around here?

JR: No I need him back right now he’s right now he is at a board and train place because he was a little misbehaving. And now I’m getting overrun by those little gophers

AM: Oh yea? [laughs]

JR: And it’s funny how we have always had a dog there. Now they [the gophers] are coming around and eating my doormats and crapping all over the place they’re digging more holes. But when the dog is there. Well he has his like his own yard. I’m lucky I got I have 45 acres.

DT: Oh wow.

AM: Wow.

JR: And then I’m backed up to BLM land so they can’t build behind me.

AM: Oh ok.

JR: He’s got a I have a fenced in yard for him that’s five acres.

DT: That’s nice.

JR: He loves it outside. Akitas they have like a down undercoat and then a fine top coat. Shit 20 below zero he goes outside and lays in the snow and the wind is blowing it doesn’t bother him.

DT: [Softly] That’s awesome.

JR: Huh?

DT: That’s awesome.

JR: Yea and uh that’s my boy.

AM: How old is he? Did you say?

JR: He will be four August twelfth.

AM: Aw.

DT: Do they allow dogs in the park? I see a lot of signs that say no dogs. Have you ever had trouble taking him into the park?

Him: No. You can. I think you have to have them on a leash though.

AM: Makes sense.

DT: Yea makes sense.

JR: You don’t want them to come off of the leash.

DT: Ok. Yea you don’t want them running up to the bears.

JR: No.

DT: Need a tight leash.

JR: Yea and you got coyotes and foxes you got-

AM: -there’s a lot out there

JR: They’re all out there. Beavers, you got wolverines, not wolverines. What’s the other animal?

DT: Badger?

JR: The badger!

DT: They look similar

JR: Yea they look similar.

DT: We did see a badger.

AM: Yea we did see a badger.

JR: They’re badass.

AM: Yea. I didn’t realize how big they were.

JR: Yea they’re low to the ground. You can’t intimidate them either

AM: Really?

JR: You got to be careful they have very sharp claws you know. Like other animals or dogs they will just take their paw and they just gut the stomach man that’s how they kill them.

AM: That’s crazy. When we were down in Gardiner we were talking to some of the local people and they were talking about how there is no housing availability like everyone is coming into town and there’s no place for them to really go.

JR: You mean like to rent?

AM: To rent and just to live like people are coming in because people are renting out houses for like the summer for like the tourism part of it but then there’s like nowhere to like buy a house. Is that happening here at all do you think or is there just so much land?

JR: Yea no there is more and more building especially- can I just ask what is that circle? [Pointing to Allison’s necklace]

AM: Oh this?

JR: That’s just a ring?

AM: Uh no its like, oh gosh I’ve had it for so long, its just kind of like what goes around comes around like kind of like karma.

JR: Oh ok

AM: Like a karma thing.

JR: Ok my friend of mine did a painting he gave me years ago called the “O space”.

AM: Oh ok.

JR: It’s kind of like the same idea you know no beginning and no end. Yea what you’re finding is- is Longwood- I’m assuming does it have a religious affiliation?

AM: No.

JR: Oh no? Ok.

Derek: It’s a state school.

JR: Oh ok. Well I don’t now what you guys feel but I’m older than you and I’ve seen what I call a decline in our culture. Like going down the tubes man. People’s values and morals and you know the violence is going up crime is going up.  I think that’s what has drawn a lot of people away from bigger cities and coming to like Montana.

AM: Makes sense

JR: You got a lot of Californians that are going to Montana they’re going to Oregon they’re going to Wyoming you know to get away. A lot of homeschooling people out here

AM: Oh ok.

JR: Because they don’t like what’s happening if you kind of like I was. I bet you guys aren’t the biggest trump fans but when you look at the way the culture is going I think that’s why he won that’s why he won the election. Not only because he is a non-career politician. They are all thieves and criminals as far as I’m concerned. They’re all waste of space. Uh but uh I think people were sick of the sick of you know neither party doing anything. They may speak of differently but when you get down to their actions there is not like dimes bit a difference between the two of them. They are all bought and paid for. So at least trump was not a career politician. I happen to know Donald Trump. You know he was friends of my parents. I’ve known Donald for over thirty years

AM and DT: Oh really?

DH: Oh wow.

JR: Yea he is a good guy he really is a good guy people can’t handle- Oh I’m tired of this political correctness stuff too I mean this is a-

AM: It’s a lot.

JR: Mhm. I don’t know how you feel about that.

AM: How have- Like you’ve traveled a lot, like you’ve been like you’ve said a lot of people around here have traveled a lot too. But is like its kind of a small town like is it kind of like small mindedness or are people here like kind of what’s the word?

JR: Worldly?

AM: Yea, I guess. Like kind of with the times or?

JR: You’ve got to admit here anyways I find people are much more mannerly here. I don’t know if you’ve noticed. Well in the park- don’t judge the park because that’s a lot of tourist, but like here for example you can be going down two lane roads you can be doing seventy-five, eighty miles an hour right. And maybe two miles ahead you’ll see somebody in a drive way or street ready to come out. You know they will until you pass them before they come out because they know that you’re moving at a high clip and if they pull out you’re going to be on their ass and they are going to slow you down. Now if I was back east, east of the Mississippi they wait until you to get right on top of them and then they pull out in front of you.

JR: You know people say hello to you on the street you don’t get that you know back east.  But you got you have a mix of people like people here have vacation homes you know there’s some people that have you know- like big sky which is up the road that’s a wealthy wealthy town. That’s that ski resort that’s kind of under the radar.

AM: Oh ok.

JR: You know you got people like Bill Gates that have a home down there.

AM: Wow.

JR: And they have like gated communities, but its like you know large properties large homes and it’s a good ski place that’s you know not as well known as like in aspen or park city Utah or wherever. So you get a mix of those people that just have vacation homes obviously they’re more worldly than the people that live here all year round.

AM: Right.

JR: Like in the winter time this is where we have mass downstairs and I’ll bet you the congregation is maybe you know forty to fifty people max.

AM: Ok. That’s not a lot.

JR: No. Because a lot of people they take off when the snow hits.

DT: Yea.

JR: [To woman walking by] Hey when are you getting interviewed?

[No audible answer]

JR: Or did she already get interviewed?

AM: They might be done.

JR: Huh? Oh that group’s done.

JR: [To Friend Perry] Did you get interviewed, Perry?

[No audible answer]

JR: He is cool he just had like what two hip replacements, he is a good guy.

DT: I have one more question.

JR: Yea go ahead.

DT: Do you feel that in Montana you have a little more of free reign as far as politics goes? Like do you feel the federal government has less like control over this area than back in Philadelphia?

JR: Well they do and they don’t if you’re talking about government I don’t know how much you know about the government but you know the founding fathers the idea was about the republic of states with the central government having little power as possible. Like if you ever read the constitution it has the enumerated powers right? Like to print of common currency you know do trade deals and trade relations with foreign countries, have military, regulate interstate commerce. It’s not that many its like ten things. And then my favorite clause in the constitution is the reserve clause. You know the reserve clause? It says all powers not specifically enumerated for the federal government are reserved for the states. Well Washington our central government has completely blown out of, you know it’s grown way out of control I think. If you notice how people are hypocrites, like what controls things? State law or federal law? Like you take I don’t know I’ll use the issue gay marriage. Ok states made it legal. It might have not been a legal federal law but they go to that state and say well you know we will get married here and we support states rights. But what if it was a federal law and the federal said you could get married but the state said you couldn’t? Then they would support the federal law you see what I mean there is a hypocrisy there.

DT and AM: Yea.

LM: If you guys could kind of find a good stopping place in a minute that would be great because we have to head on to our next activity.

JR: Yea.

LM: Perfect. Thank you.

JR: She must be the boss lady.

DH: Maybe for just one final question. What is something about this town or about yourself or about this area or the park in general that you would want people 100 years from now to know about?

JR: Well to know first off that it exists and to come here. Do you know- I was just thinking of that song. I like older music. I’m still kind of mourning I’m upset today because I was a big Allman Brothers Fan.

DT: Oh he died today didn’t he.

DM: Greg Allman.

JR: I don’t know if you are familiar with their music.

DT: I like them too.

JR: They were awesome weren’t they? I got to see them live a number of times.

AM: Really?

DT: Awesome.

JR: But I like old hardcore honky tonk, but one of the few newer guys I like is you know Jason Aldean you know he has a song about the fly over states you know the people will just fly over from east coast to west coast or Midwest to west or east. And they never experience here. They never- Like isn’t it kind of refreshing coming from Virginia, even though that’s not real populated, but isn’t it kind of refreshing to see that there is still this much wide open space available?

DT: Oh yea definitely. Definitely.

JR: Right you probably never thought there was a place like this right?

DT: Yea it’s beautiful. It’s definitely refreshing to see.

JR: Yea isn’t it. There’s no traffic jams no its just its not an asphalt concrete million buildings and gas stations on every corner and fast food its like its another world. Like to me like when you said in a hundred years who are we going to thank? Was it Teddy Roosevelt? He came up with the idea making Yellowstone a National Park and you know preserving this land and nature and not screw it up.

[Allison sneezes]

JR: God bless you.

AM: Thank you.

JR: You know I look at American Indian’s viewed as far back as carbon dating tests say thirty thousand years ago. Look how the country was until the white man came two hundred and fifty years we like ruined half the place or a third of the place.

AM: Yea.

JR: No respect for the land. Yea so it’s like a natural wonder that we are lucky to have and if you ever lose it there’s no getting it back.

AM and DT: Yea. Yea.

DT: Well thank you so much we really appreciate you taking the time.

JR: Well I hope I said something worth while.

DT: Yea you did it was very-

AM: -Very enjoyable.

DH: Thank you for your time.

DT: Yes!

JR: My pleasure man.

DH: It was an honor meeting you.

JR: Honor to meet you guys too.

DT: Very enjoyable thank you, appreciate it. And we do have one piece of paperwork that we forgot to have you sign. All of the boring stuff you know.

AM: Do these like automatically- I don’t know how to work these do I just press stop?

DT: I would ask her so we don’t lose it

AM: Ok I don’t want to lose it.

JR: [As he is signing a part of the paper] So how long are you guys here for?

AM: Until tomorrow.

DT: Yea.

JR: You’re here in west until tomorrow?

AM: We are here in west until today. We are here just for the day and then we go back to Gardiner.

AM to LM: How do I stop it and not lose it?

AM: And then does it automatically save-

[Recorder cuts off]